MR. ANDERSON then spoke for ten minutes. He said,
I established that Christ had all power on earth. Mr. Nisbet did not touch that or deny it, and wanted to say that the earth was not His because the apostles were not drawing rent from it. What right has he to judge people in the light of His having no territory? The fact that he has an obedient people proves that He is ruling them now, and if he does not strike men dead he is only deferring the punishment of men who are on His territory. But these are not subject to His laws, and those not subject to His laws are rebels on His territory, and will be punished by Him. Mr. Nisbet wants to confuse one phase of the kingdom with another. He says there always has been a Kingdom of God. In the sense of an overruling Providence that is so, but he admitted the Jews were in a kingdom, though not in that sense. He admits there was a time when the Kingdom of Israel began. That being so there must be another kingdom besides the one that always existed. Mr. Nisbet says it began with David.
MR. NISBET. - I made no such statement. I said David sat upon the throne of the Lord; it began at Mount Sinai.
MR. ANDERSON. - Then that proves that it did not require an earthly king to make a kingdom. Samuel says God was their king before they asked an earthly king; that kingdom then so far resembles the kingdom now. This kingdom was ruled from the throne of God until they asked another king. All its laws were given through Moses, and it had subjects here on earth. In the very same way Christ sits upon the throne of God, and the power of that throne is handed to Him, and He reigns. He asked the people to be subject to Him, and all in heaven and earth are subject to Him. I want to call attention to that verse in Colossians which says "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness." Was he not referring there to the Colossians? Were they not in it? "And hath translated us into the kingdom." And yet the Colossians were not in the kingdom? Paul says to them, "In Him we have redemption through His blood." Was that confined to the apostles?
MR. NISBET. - Yes, that was given to them.
MR. ANDERSON. - The poor saints were out of it; these were special blessings conferred upon the apostles. I shall not waste time in talking about a thing of that kind. I have said, and he has admitted, that the Jews were a kingdom different from that of God's overruling providence. I have pointed out that the Jewish kingdom came to an end. Mr. Nisbet says it began before it had a king. Then when did it come to an end? - there was something at an end that was here before. Christianity was not here then; it came immediately after that. Mr. Nisbet says that there is nothing here that can be called a kingdom. I say that is worse than nonsense.
MR. NISBET. - I distinctly said that it came into existence, was a Kingdom of God, and the apostles were in it.
MR. ANDERSON. - I am here to prove that the kingdom that was at hand came immediately after. Mr. Nisbet admits that it came, and the apostles got into it, and I think he is out of it for the evening. That something which was at hand then came immediately after that. I have pointed out that Christ issues laws, has subjects, and asks the nations to be subject to them, and have showed that he ruled over territory. Notwithstanding that, with all the essentials of a kingdom, Mr. Nisbet denies that any kingdom in any real sense came into existence. Suppose I spend the next two minutes reading a portion of the 13th chapter of Matthew, 24th verse:- "Another parable put He forth unto them saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the household came and said unto him, 'Sir, did'st not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?' He said unto them, 'An enemy hath done this.' The servants said unto him, 'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?' But he said, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn; but gather the wheat into my barn.'" Then turn to verse 36, "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house; and His disciples came unto Him, saying, 'Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.' He answered and said unto them, 'He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that soweth them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As, therefore, the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.'"
MR. NISBET spoke for ten minutes as follows: -
It will be necessary that I should explain my position a little more fully, as, when my opponent does not understand me, it is not to be expected that the audience will. What I want to explain is this: "What is a kingdom? What are the essentials of a kingdom?" I may say that in Rev. 16:16, I think it is (Correction - Chap. 17:18), where there is a woman referred to "who reigneth over the kings of the earth," in the Revised Version you will find in the margin "who hath a kingdom over the kings of the earth." And another statement is that some of the kings agreed to give their kingdom to the beast. They did not give their territory. They gave the rule, or sway, or kingship. We are told that "a woman reigneth over the kings of the earth." Literally, "hath a kingdom over the kings of the earth." That was the position of the Pope of Rome, who had a kingdom over the kings of the earth, and yet he had not a bit of their territory. They retained the territory which was in the earth. He was their king, but he had no territory such as they possessed. He had some territory, but he had not the territory of these kings of the earth, and yet they had given to him their "kingdom." That shows the word "kingdom" was not used in Mr. Anderson's sense, such as when we speak of Great Britain and Ireland as being a kingdom. Such a kingdom means the "dom" of the king or the place where he exercises his rule, but in the New Testament it is used in the sense that we use the term "reign" - such as "in the reign of Cyrus," rendered the same way as basileia is rendered kingdom in the New Testament - which simply means kingship, or reign, or rule, and so you can have it "in the reign of Cyrus," the same word which was kingdom. Now God's reign over the earth has never been intermittent, but his reign upon the earth has been intermittent - has come and gone. It came again in the apostolic age and went away with the apostles, who have not been succeeded by any Kingdom of God upon the earth. But God's rule is over all, as we are told in Daniel, "God ruleth in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth," because He manipulates the actions of the kings of the earth so as to bring about His great or eternal purpose. Jesus said, "If I by the finger of God cast out demons, then, no doubt, the Kingdom of God is come upon you." There was the power of God in operation; there was the Kingdom of God. The power of God was in their midst acting through the apostles who were in the kingdom. Christ possessed the kingdom and exercised the powers of the kingdom. In Hebrews 6:4-6 it says, "It is impossible for those who have tasted the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to be renewed unto repentance." Judas found no place of repentance. Judas went to his own place. While Jesus was on earth he did not need to go to heaven to have a kingdom. In Rev. 17:18 and in the preceding verse we find that it was agreed to give a kingdom (basileia = rule). They gave nothing else. The kingdom that came about after John was seen in the power of God, and embraced as many as God was pleased to call to rule. "The kingdom was at hand." What does "at hand" mean? It is used in two senses. "When they came nigh to Jerusalem." That is the very same expression. Another sense is that of time, "Behold the hour is at hand." That was the time when Jesus was to be betrayed. That is the same expression. Here it is a matter of time. The Kingdom of God was at hand both as to time and place. "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand." There it was, a kingdom; it was there immediately; God was there, and Christ was there and the apostles were there. What has Mr. Anderson said by reply? He said Mr. Nisbet in his simple way tries to confuse two things. He can't prove that statement. It is his own confusion, the confusion is not mine. There is only one Kingdom of God, but it had various manifestations on earth, first in Moses and then in Saul, David and the Prophets, and went away; and a kingdom again came into existence in the earth and it also went away.
Mr. Anderson put the following questions to Mr. Nisbet: -
Q. - You say a kingdom means rule and power, and John was in it?
A. - Yes, John was in it, and exercised his power
Q. - You proved that from Rev. 1:9?
A. - Partly.
Q. - You say the others were out and John was in it, and John says they were companions?
A. - Yes, because he was writing to the messengers of the churches - the "angels" of the churches associated in power with him.
Q. - You think that John was not writing to these churches? In Rev. 1:4, "John to the seven churches," and not to the messengers in this case. And he says, "I am your companion in tribulation in the kingdom." Do you deny that means the churches?
A. - Deny what?
Q. - That the churches were companions?
A. - I deny that it excludes the "angels" when you speak of the church.
Q. - But still it was to the churches he was writing, and to the churches when he said, "I am your companion in the kingdom?"
A. - It was for the churches through the "angels."
Q. - I shall leave that to be examined by those who care to examine it. You say "the kingdom at hand" meant the power to work miracles, expel demons, and that is what is meant by the kingdom?
A. - I gave you more than that; I said they raised the dead, healed the sick, cured the lepers, and preached the Kingdom of God to the poor.
Q. - Did you not say that was the kingdom of power which they exercised in casting out demons and such like?
A. - I said when they possessed a kingdom they had that power.
Q. - Did you say they had the power to work miracles, cast out demons, and such like?
A. - I don't confine it to that, but include these.
Q. - If that really was the kingdom, why did John preach the kingdom was at hand?
A. - John died, and there were no miracles then; since then the Kingdom of God was preached.
Q. - John was not the only preacher; John did not die before Jesus worked the miracles. Did not Jesus work the miracles and say - "Go and tell John what you see and hear," and preached the kingdom at hand then?
A. - They preached the kingdom at hand from the beginning of the preaching of John. It was at hand when John preached, and ultimately when the apostles received power from on high that Christ promised them, it was an accomplished fact.
Q. - Now, you admit that power was there, and still the kingdom was at hand?
A. - I don't admit such nonsense.
Q. - The Kingdom of heaven is like the parable. The enemy came and sowed tares. The field is the world; he that sowed the good seed, the Son of Man; the enemy was the devil; the good seed, the children of the Kingdom; the tares, the children of the wicked one; both grew together till the harvest. That is a mixed population, some serving God and some otherwise, and the kingdom is like that; is yours like that?
A. - That is something of it, but not the full extent of it.
Q. - Do you believe in a kingdom where both shall grow together?
A. - I don't; that parable is an application of a single aspect of the kingdom, and does not describe the kingdom as a whole. No parable has a general application, but is always particularly confined to one aspect.
Q. - Does that parable refer to the present aspect of things?
A. - Do you mean what we are speaking of, or the apostolic time?
Q. - I mean just now, that you and I are speaking of, that both grew together; does it refer to this dispensation?
A. - I did not say a dispensation; it refers to the past, not to the present.
Q. - What period does it apply to?
A. - To the time when there is a kingdom. There is no kingdom now. You have got to prove that.
Q. - The kingdom was at hand; you admit the preaching of Jesus was a kingdom at hand?
A. - No; that was not the preaching of Jesus.
Q. - You deny that was the main theme of Christ's preaching?
A. - Yes; I deny it was the main theme of Christ's preaching, that it was that the Kingdom of God was at hand.
Q. - He preached the kingdom at hand?
A. - I am not saying that I deny it.
Q. - Look at Matthew 4:17 - "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." That is Jesus, not John?
A. - I am just done saying that, but he did not confine Himself to that; it was not His main teaching.
Q. - Then, do you believe in this 13th chapter of Matthew, where He preached the kingdom as at hand, and He said, "the kingdom is like this?" Do you believe it was a kingdom at hand like that?
A. - He does not preach a kingdom at hand here; He tells them a parable about a kingdom.
Mr. Nisbet put questions to Mr. Anderson, as follows: -
Q. - The kingdom which was at hand, and came into existence in the days of Jesus Christ and the apostles, does it still exist on the earth?
A. - It still exists on the earth, as it existed when it came into existence after John's preaching.
Q. - Was it a kingdom on the earth then?
A. - The kingdom preached at hand was a kingdom when it came.
Q. - Is it a kingdom still?
A. - A kingdom still.
Q. - Is the Kingdom of God now in existence on earth?
A. - There is a Kingdom of God now in existence on earth.
Q. - A kingdom! Is there two kingdoms?
A. - You say there were two aspects; the Jews were one aspect.
Q. - I want to know if that kingdom which came into existence after the preaching of John is still on the earth?
A. - Yes.
Q. - And are there kings on the earth and territory?
A. - The proposition is before you, and it says it is ruled from the throne of God, and has its subjects on the earth.
Q. - You say that the Kingdom of God came into existence on earth and had kings. My question is - Had the Kingdom of God any kings belonging to it on earth?
A. - Not on the earth.
Q. - Will it ever have kings on the earth?
A. - No; the one at hand then never will.
Q. - Is it going out of existence sometime?
A. - Yes.
Q. - Was the kingdom at hand an everlasting one?
A. - There is an everlasting kingdom coming.
Q. - Is Jesus sitting on the throne of a different kingdom from the one that John preached?
A. - He is on the one that John said was just at hand.
Q. - Will the king go out of existence along with it?
A. - No.
Q. - The king will lose his kingdom?
A. - He will deliver up his kingdom to his Father.
Q. - No; you say it is to go out of existence. How can it do that when it is to be handed over?
A. - I could not tell you how it is going to happen.
Q. - You say that the kingdom introduced after the preaching of John is to go out of existence?
A. - Yes.
Q. - Would the king go out of existence?
A. - I said not as a person.
Q. - How could he hand over a kingdom to somebody else if it had gone out of existence?
A. - You have admitted that the kingdom has different aspects.
Q. - Answer me; don't question me. Do you believe that Jesus Christ will hand over a kingdom which does not exist?
A. - No; He will not hand over anything that is out of existence.
Q. - Is it to go out of existence?
A. - The kingdom which was at hand then will cease to be in that aspect when Christ comes again.
Q. - Will he hand it over?
A. - He will hand it over after a while.
Q. - Will He hand it over before it goes out of existence or after?
A. - Give me time to explain.
Q. - I want a "Yes" or "No."
A. - I know you want a "Yes" or "No," but you won't get it.
Mr. Wardrop, chairman for Mr. Anderson, intervening, said Mr. Nisbet was not tied up to "Yes" or "No," and what was fair for the one side was fair for the other, and if Mr. Anderson refused to answer "Yes" or "No," Mr. Nisbet could go on with another question.
Mr. Andrew Thomas, chairman for Mr. Nisbet, said Mr. Anderson should answer "Yes" or "No" when it could be done.
Mr. Nisbet continued his questions: -
Q. - What is the kingdom in the sense that John preached it as at hand? What did it mean and amount to?
A. - It means this: that the time was just at hand when the Jewish laws would cease to have authority, and that dispensation would end, and Christ would sit on the throne of God, with all the power in heaven and earth, and command all the nations to submit to Him as followers. And that time had come, and is here, and that is what it meant..
Q. - You affirm that this kingdom preached by John as at hand now exists; does it exist in part or in entirety?
A. - The kingdom at hand then now exists in its entirety.
Q. - Have the nations of the earth the opportunity of conforming to the commands of Jesus, that you refer to?
A. - A great many have, and others have not.
Q. - Then, it has not been realised yet?
A. - I don't see the force of that.
Q. - You said that was one of the things?
A. - There you are! Do you give a man time to answer?
Mr. Anderson put the following questions: -
Q. - In the parable of the tares they both grew together; the children of the wicked one and that of the kingdom. Do you admit that there could be a kingdom with wicked ones and obedient ones?
A. - There is no statement there that they existed.
Q. - And the kingdom existed and was composed of wicked and obedient ones?
A. - Where does it say that in the Bible?
Q. - The kingdom is like this?
A. - And what is your authority?
Q. - I read the parable to the end, but I am not bound to read it twice. The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed?
A. - That is not the parable of the tares.
Q. - I shall read it then. Matthew 13:38, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one," etc. Here it states what the kingdom is like, what then is your reason for denying it?
A. - But you asked a question and I should be allowed to answer it.
Q. - There is a parable and the kingdom is like it.?
A. - Not the one John preached.
Q. - But you admitted it?
A. - I admitted a kingdom like this, not the parable which speaks of a Kingdom of Heaven which is the vineyard God planted under Saul and David and others, until finally destroyed at the coming of Christ, A.D. 70..
Q. - You think this parable refers to the days of David and does not refer to anything future?
A. - I said it refers to the past and the time future, A.D. 70, 35 years after Jesus was speaking.
Q. - Do you expect the kingdom coming will be like that?
A. - I said that a Kingdom of God existed under Saul and David. God planted a vineyard there and tried to bring some good from out of it, and sowed good seed. The result was bad, and in this parable Jesus says that during the time it existed the enemy sowed tares. There were children of the kingdom and owed their origin to the throne of the kingdom..
Mr. Nisbet put the following questions: -
Q. - You have said that a Kingdom of God existed in the time of the Kingdom of Israel.?
A. - There was a kingdom in the time of Israel.
Q. - And ruled by the kings of Israel?
A. - Ruled by the kings of Israel.
Q. - And was there not a Kingdom of the Lord in the days of David?
A. - Yes, but it was a kingdom before there was a David, an earthly king.
Q. - You agreed with me that it began under Moses. I stated that God gave them a king, and that the Kingdom of Israel was still a Kingdom of God in the hands of David?
A. - I believe that there was a Kingdom of God in the time of Israel.
Q. - We are agreed that a Kingdom of God existed under David, and that Kingdom of God disappeared from among men?
A. - Yes.
Q. - That rule ceased, and that was taking away the Kingdom of God?
A. - When the rule altogether ceased the kingdom ceased.
Q. - That it had altogether ceased?
A. - From the day of Pentecost, after Christ's resurrection, because then all men were commanded to obey Christ and not Moses.
Q. - So it existed in Israel at the Pentecost?
A. - Up till the teaching of Jesus, we had another kingdom preached by John at hand.
Q. - That is two side by side?
A. - The one was at hand; they were not side by side.
Q. - You believe and have stated that the kingdom which came into existence after John the Baptist's preaching was existing at that time?
A. - I know best myself what I mean.
Q. - Did the kingdom at hand that John preached come into existence after his preaching?
A. - Yes, certainly.
Q. - And existed before Jesus lived on earth?
A. - No.
Q. - It did not exist until Pentecost?
A. - It did not exist until Jesus Christ died.
Q. - So there was no kingdom during all the time that Jesus was preaching, healing the sick, etc., there was no such kingdom as at hand then existing?
A. - No, the kingdom at hand did not exist then.
Q. - How was He casting out demons when the Kingdom of God was upon them?
A. - He was exercising His power of God while he was preaching, showing the He could bring to pass all He said.